1 00:00:10,129 --> 00:00:08,540 on this episode of skeptic Oh one of the 2 00:00:12,770 --> 00:00:10,139 many aspects of it that is completely 3 00:00:16,099 --> 00:00:12,780 ridiculous is someone who claims to be a 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:16,109 reasonable man and and tries to be in 5 00:00:20,029 --> 00:00:18,330 accord with science the Dalai Lama bases 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:20,039 his hope is most all position is based 7 00:00:25,429 --> 00:00:21,810 on something absolutely ridiculous if 8 00:00:28,250 --> 00:00:25,439 you really believe in in what he said if 9 00:00:30,529 --> 00:00:28,260 he really put his money where his mouth 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:30,539 is he'll resign is Dali Lama cuz the 11 00:00:33,740 --> 00:00:32,250 Dalai Lama is based on on reincarnation 12 00:00:36,139 --> 00:00:33,750 which is just nonsense 13 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:36,149 well I don't know if it's just nonsense 14 00:00:42,950 --> 00:00:40,410 I mean but I just talked to Jim Tucker 15 00:00:44,750 --> 00:00:42,960 you know respected psychologists in the 16 00:00:46,819 --> 00:00:44,760 department of psychology and psychiatry 17 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:46,829 at university of virginia they've done 18 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:48,930 just extensive work published in the 19 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:52,110 best journals in their field and they 20 00:00:59,029 --> 00:00:54,690 offer the only explanation for what they 21 00:01:01,490 --> 00:00:59,039 found in terms of reincarnation I think 22 00:01:04,369 --> 00:01:01,500 you would really have to tell me 23 00:01:06,410 --> 00:01:04,379 specifically what is wrong with back to 24 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:06,420 science what's wrong with the scientific 25 00:01:25,170 --> 00:01:09,510 method that they've employed stay with 26 00:01:28,929 --> 00:01:27,459 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 27 00:01:31,179 --> 00:01:28,939 controversial science with leading 28 00:01:33,279 --> 00:01:31,189 researchers thinkers and their critics 29 00:01:35,469 --> 00:01:33,289 I'm your host Alex Karras and on this 30 00:01:38,609 --> 00:01:35,479 episode of skeptical we continue on the 31 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:38,619 theme of atheism and it's sometimes 32 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:41,810 strange entanglement with science at 33 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:44,450 least it seems strange to me our guest 34 00:01:49,809 --> 00:01:46,970 of course is Arizona State professor of 35 00:01:51,490 --> 00:01:49,819 theoretical physics dr. Lawrence Krauss 36 00:01:53,529 --> 00:01:51,500 who was a very popular and well-known 37 00:01:55,300 --> 00:01:53,539 figure in the atheist and skeptical 38 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:55,310 communities and was recently featured 39 00:02:00,039 --> 00:01:57,770 along with Richard Dawkins in the movie 40 00:02:01,899 --> 00:02:00,049 the unbelievers during this interview we 41 00:02:05,050 --> 00:02:01,909 talked about of course reincarnation 42 00:02:06,999 --> 00:02:05,060 science at least I do we talk about 43 00:02:08,859 --> 00:02:07,009 extraordinary claims and extraordinary 44 00:02:11,530 --> 00:02:08,869 proof that's a topic you know I've 45 00:02:13,569 --> 00:02:11,540 talked about many times and dr. Krauss 46 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:13,579 and I give it a go on that one as well 47 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:16,010 and finally since dr. Krauss is a 48 00:02:21,039 --> 00:02:18,530 well-known advocate of the meaningless 49 00:02:24,759 --> 00:02:21,049 universe concept we talk about morality 50 00:02:27,340 --> 00:02:24,769 and how morality can exist in a 51 00:02:29,470 --> 00:02:27,350 meaningless universe it was a great 52 00:02:32,050 --> 00:02:29,480 pleasure to have dr. Krauss on the show 53 00:02:34,390 --> 00:02:32,060 I certainly appreciate him joining me 54 00:02:37,330 --> 00:02:34,400 and his willingness to dig in to some of 55 00:02:39,699 --> 00:02:37,340 these tough issues I hope you enjoy the 56 00:02:41,949 --> 00:02:39,709 interview today we welcome renowned 57 00:02:44,229 --> 00:02:41,959 theatres coal physicist dr. Lawrence 58 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:44,239 Krauss - skeptic Oh in addition to his 59 00:02:47,849 --> 00:02:46,130 day job as a professor in the Department 60 00:02:51,099 --> 00:02:47,859 of Physics at Arizona State University 61 00:02:53,710 --> 00:02:51,109 dr. Krauss is also a successful author 62 00:02:56,379 --> 00:02:53,720 his book a universe from nothing was a 63 00:02:59,020 --> 00:02:56,389 New York Times best seller and most 64 00:03:01,479 --> 00:02:59,030 recently he was featured in along with 65 00:03:04,750 --> 00:03:01,489 dr. Richard Dawkins a very well done 66 00:03:07,509 --> 00:03:04,760 documentary on atheism titled the 67 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:07,519 unbelievers dr. Krauss welcome to 68 00:03:11,860 --> 00:03:09,410 skeptic oh thanks so much for joining me 69 00:03:15,910 --> 00:03:11,870 all right I should be here virtually at 70 00:03:17,650 --> 00:03:15,920 least right so the movie the unbelievers 71 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:17,660 it's very well done 72 00:03:21,940 --> 00:03:20,090 packed with clips from not only 73 00:03:24,610 --> 00:03:21,950 well-known figures in the atheist 74 00:03:26,890 --> 00:03:24,620 community some impressive celebrity 75 00:03:28,719 --> 00:03:26,900 cameos are in there as well I thought 76 00:03:30,310 --> 00:03:28,729 you came across very well in the film 77 00:03:32,770 --> 00:03:30,320 you look very relaxed like you're having 78 00:03:34,150 --> 00:03:32,780 fun was it was it that easy for you to 79 00:03:36,310 --> 00:03:34,160 be in front of the cameras for 80 00:03:38,830 --> 00:03:36,320 that extended period of time well I 81 00:03:41,590 --> 00:03:38,840 always try to have fun so I guess that's 82 00:03:43,090 --> 00:03:41,600 part of it the crew is a wonderful group 83 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:43,100 of young men and of course you get used 84 00:03:47,470 --> 00:03:46,010 to it it's it's it's intrusive but but 85 00:03:49,150 --> 00:03:47,480 it was an enjoyable experience yeah I 86 00:03:51,790 --> 00:03:49,160 was generally enjoyable I they were very 87 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:51,800 they were there was non intrusive as 88 00:03:54,790 --> 00:03:52,730 they could be and I think they're 89 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:54,800 wonderful young filmmakers and the goal 90 00:03:59,920 --> 00:03:57,770 was was was worth the effort and it was 91 00:04:03,750 --> 00:03:59,930 kind of fun to see what they would do 92 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:03,760 with it so yeah I guess I do what I do 93 00:04:08,980 --> 00:04:06,490 for the most part because I enjoy it 94 00:04:11,650 --> 00:04:08,990 well you know one of the things that you 95 00:04:13,150 --> 00:04:11,660 do when you do I think I'm sure this is 96 00:04:15,130 --> 00:04:13,160 in real life as well but it certainly 97 00:04:17,289 --> 00:04:15,140 comes through in the film is you know 98 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:17,299 you engage with folks that disagree with 99 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:20,090 you and you do that in a and a you know 100 00:04:23,980 --> 00:04:22,490 very vigorous way but also a fun 101 00:04:25,990 --> 00:04:23,990 respectful way one of the scenes I 102 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:26,000 really liked from the film is this 103 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:28,130 debate you do early on with this group 104 00:04:32,890 --> 00:04:31,490 of Muslim students in Australia maybe 105 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:32,900 you want to set up that scene a little 106 00:04:39,250 --> 00:04:35,210 bit and tell us how much that's like 107 00:04:43,150 --> 00:04:39,260 other debates and kind of encounters you 108 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:43,160 do on a on a regular basis but pretty 109 00:04:46,330 --> 00:04:45,170 often nothing I do so many different 110 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:46,340 things it's hard to say anything's 111 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:49,370 regular but all right that was a that 112 00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:50,930 was an interesting event because it was 113 00:04:57,370 --> 00:04:55,550 a Muslim debating society or that asked 114 00:04:58,810 --> 00:04:57,380 me to do this and and I didn't really 115 00:05:01,180 --> 00:04:58,820 know what I was in for they seemed like 116 00:05:02,590 --> 00:05:01,190 they were legitimately interested it 117 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:02,600 wasn't that they didn't have an agenda 118 00:05:07,750 --> 00:05:05,030 and I've done some debates where people 119 00:05:09,159 --> 00:05:07,760 have had an agenda and and as I say in 120 00:05:11,830 --> 00:05:09,169 the movie what was kind of strange is it 121 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:11,840 was only advertised as far as I can see 122 00:05:14,380 --> 00:05:13,550 among the Muslim community was it even 123 00:05:16,090 --> 00:05:14,390 though it's supposed to be a public 124 00:05:18,010 --> 00:05:16,100 event I didn't see any advertisement of 125 00:05:20,409 --> 00:05:18,020 elsewhere so I had no sense of what the 126 00:05:22,090 --> 00:05:20,419 audience would be like or what what kind 127 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:22,100 of hostilities but it was at the same 128 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:26,090 time while unfortunately it was a young 129 00:05:34,060 --> 00:05:29,630 man and I think somewhat inexperienced 130 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:34,070 it was it was a more or less it was a 131 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:37,130 respectful event and I mean I totally 132 00:05:41,890 --> 00:05:39,410 indicate where I thought his ideas were 133 00:05:43,570 --> 00:05:41,900 ridiculous and as I've said before 134 00:05:45,909 --> 00:05:43,580 finding someone's ideas ridiculous is 135 00:05:48,129 --> 00:05:45,919 not the same as demeaning them but but 136 00:05:49,749 --> 00:05:48,139 afterwards there was it was a lot 137 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:49,759 the Muslim group and was kind of fun is 138 00:05:53,589 --> 00:05:51,710 that afterwards I signed books for 139 00:05:55,689 --> 00:05:53,599 people people who were weighing you know 140 00:05:58,209 --> 00:05:55,699 Charles and kerchiefs over their heads 141 00:05:59,769 --> 00:05:58,219 and things but also we stayed so I think 142 00:06:01,450 --> 00:05:59,779 the thing I like best and I don't know 143 00:06:03,219 --> 00:06:01,460 if you captured it but it was it was 144 00:06:05,499 --> 00:06:03,229 sort of a subtle in the movie was um 145 00:06:07,029 --> 00:06:05,509 they showed it going on till 11 o'clock 146 00:06:08,589 --> 00:06:07,039 at night which it did do because I 147 00:06:09,730 --> 00:06:08,599 answer questions as long as well as a 148 00:06:11,409 --> 00:06:09,740 way as possible 149 00:06:13,119 --> 00:06:11,419 and then we were I was I had fun 150 00:06:14,769 --> 00:06:13,129 chatting with the the people I've been 151 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:14,779 debating with for another half-hour in 152 00:06:18,129 --> 00:06:16,490 the back and I think you can see that at 153 00:06:20,589 --> 00:06:18,139 the end the movie and so or at the end 154 00:06:23,170 --> 00:06:20,599 of the scene and that was that was that 155 00:06:24,939 --> 00:06:23,180 was very pleasant because it meant you 156 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:24,949 know while we disagreed and and they 157 00:06:29,170 --> 00:06:27,050 wanted to raise the issues and they had 158 00:06:31,899 --> 00:06:29,180 an honest interest in in really having 159 00:06:35,050 --> 00:06:31,909 an honest dialogue and not in promoting 160 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:35,060 some ideology right right I think that 161 00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:37,370 did come through you know the other 162 00:06:41,890 --> 00:06:39,889 thing I thought you did a nice job of in 163 00:06:44,740 --> 00:06:41,900 the film and obviously you're a 164 00:06:47,140 --> 00:06:44,750 scientist with a very strong scientific 165 00:06:50,170 --> 00:06:47,150 research background and you really talk 166 00:06:52,779 --> 00:06:50,180 about science as a method not a position 167 00:06:54,579 --> 00:06:52,789 you know and and you even say it's about 168 00:06:55,990 --> 00:06:54,589 being proven wrong and you know hey when 169 00:06:57,459 --> 00:06:56,000 have you been proven wrong it's great to 170 00:07:00,249 --> 00:06:57,469 be proven wrong I do it all the time I 171 00:07:01,959 --> 00:07:00,259 really like that the reality I think 172 00:07:04,809 --> 00:07:01,969 that comes through in the film though is 173 00:07:06,579 --> 00:07:04,819 it's tough and I understand that it's 174 00:07:08,709 --> 00:07:06,589 tough because science does get pulled 175 00:07:12,850 --> 00:07:08,719 into policy debates culture war debates 176 00:07:15,159 --> 00:07:12,860 and it's really hard not to say science 177 00:07:17,230 --> 00:07:15,169 says this or science says that and in 178 00:07:19,629 --> 00:07:17,240 some cases I understand you know when 179 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:19,639 you're talking about whether common 180 00:07:23,879 --> 00:07:21,770 descent or Noah's Ark is a better 181 00:07:27,879 --> 00:07:23,889 explanation for why we're here 182 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:27,889 shorthand is to say science says so but 183 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:29,990 isn't there kind of a problem there I 184 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:33,050 mean you should never appeal to 185 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:34,610 Authority if you don't you can't and 186 00:07:38,230 --> 00:07:36,649 they're made it's easy to fall into 187 00:07:40,719 --> 00:07:38,240 traps for example to use the word 188 00:07:42,369 --> 00:07:40,729 believe I believe this to be the case 189 00:07:44,679 --> 00:07:42,379 and so belief is not something we should 190 00:07:46,719 --> 00:07:44,689 mention as a sign it's something likely 191 00:07:48,909 --> 00:07:46,729 or more unlikely but belief doesn't 192 00:07:50,860 --> 00:07:48,919 enter into it we tend to say it I try 193 00:07:52,389 --> 00:07:50,870 and catch myself now you know they say 194 00:07:53,950 --> 00:07:52,399 do you believe in evolution about belief 195 00:07:56,409 --> 00:07:53,960 it doesn't matter evolution happened 196 00:08:00,610 --> 00:07:56,419 whether you believe it or not and I 197 00:08:01,670 --> 00:08:00,620 think I think on the whole we what we 198 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:01,680 can argue is that 199 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:04,530 sure you shouldn't take things on faith 200 00:08:08,210 --> 00:08:06,330 on the other hand you can't be an expert 201 00:08:10,939 --> 00:08:08,220 at everything and you can ask yourself 202 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:10,949 skeptically given the different groups 203 00:08:15,430 --> 00:08:13,710 who are trying to argue and what is 204 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:15,440 their agenda what do they have to gain 205 00:08:19,930 --> 00:08:17,850 which and when it comes to scientific 206 00:08:23,180 --> 00:08:19,940 issues am i more likely to trust 207 00:08:25,249 --> 00:08:23,190 scientists whose real job is not to is 208 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:25,259 not to promote an ideology but to find 209 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:26,610 out how things work or should I believe 210 00:08:30,980 --> 00:08:29,370 people who who who clearly have an 211 00:08:32,899 --> 00:08:30,990 agenda or an ideology that they're 212 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:32,909 pushing and and in fact the argument 213 00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:34,770 when you say you talk about Noah's Ark 214 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:37,110 versus you know common descent is to say 215 00:08:41,089 --> 00:08:39,450 well you know just there's no evidence 216 00:08:43,490 --> 00:08:41,099 or one there's tons of evidence for the 217 00:08:47,079 --> 00:08:43,500 other and and and I think it's if 218 00:08:49,370 --> 00:08:47,089 whenever possible it's it's to argue why 219 00:08:52,190 --> 00:08:49,380 the scientific community heads in a 220 00:08:54,140 --> 00:08:52,200 certain direction not that they have but 221 00:08:56,750 --> 00:08:54,150 of course every now and then one has to 222 00:08:59,690 --> 00:08:56,760 say if you're gonna if you're gonna if 223 00:09:03,380 --> 00:08:59,700 you're gonna have without knowing guess 224 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:03,390 which group might be more trustworthy on 225 00:09:07,370 --> 00:09:05,850 climate change is a climate scientists 226 00:09:08,690 --> 00:09:07,380 who are really there they are in the 227 00:09:10,610 --> 00:09:08,700 same amount whether the climate is 228 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:10,620 changing or not they're trying to figure 229 00:09:13,250 --> 00:09:12,570 out what works or people say in the oil 230 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:13,260 industry 231 00:09:18,530 --> 00:09:15,930 I mean who who is more likely to want to 232 00:09:21,740 --> 00:09:18,540 convince you of an idea that benefits 233 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:21,750 them yeah but it does get tricky as it 234 00:09:25,340 --> 00:09:23,730 does with you know climate scientists 235 00:09:27,140 --> 00:09:25,350 because there's the oil company on one 236 00:09:29,150 --> 00:09:27,150 side and there's people selling carbon 237 00:09:30,829 --> 00:09:29,160 credits on the other you know it just as 238 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:30,839 soon as we get into the public policy 239 00:09:35,990 --> 00:09:33,930 issue to a certain extent all bets are 240 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:36,000 off but even if we stick with evolution 241 00:09:42,410 --> 00:09:39,570 you know one of my people I disagree I 242 00:09:44,090 --> 00:09:42,420 think I think it's specifically when it 243 00:09:46,610 --> 00:09:44,100 comes to public policy that this matters 244 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:46,620 that we have to explain to people that 245 00:09:50,990 --> 00:09:49,170 they should ask they should be skeptical 246 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:51,000 of all groups but they should be 247 00:09:54,949 --> 00:09:52,770 skeptical and they we should look for 248 00:09:59,449 --> 00:09:54,959 evidence and in fact they should ask is 249 00:10:01,190 --> 00:09:59,459 this policy based on empirical data and 250 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:01,200 if so is that empirical data reliable 251 00:10:04,250 --> 00:10:02,610 those are the kind of questions that we 252 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:04,260 should all be asking when it comes to 253 00:10:07,490 --> 00:10:05,610 public policy whether we're voting for 254 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:07,500 someone or whether member of the 255 00:10:15,020 --> 00:10:13,410 Congress and and I think the my big the 256 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:15,030 reason I tend to get involved in 257 00:10:20,030 --> 00:10:17,130 the policy issues as well as science is 258 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:20,040 because I want Public Policy to be based 259 00:10:23,570 --> 00:10:21,570 I don't want scientists to decide with 260 00:10:24,770 --> 00:10:23,580 them what the policies are because for 261 00:10:27,710 --> 00:10:24,780 when it comes to climate change for 262 00:10:29,660 --> 00:10:27,720 example you may say look I understand 263 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:29,670 the cause of climate change but for this 264 00:10:33,290 --> 00:10:31,290 reason or at this economic reason or 265 00:10:35,180 --> 00:10:33,300 whatever we can't act now well I 266 00:10:38,390 --> 00:10:35,190 disagree with that but at least it's a 267 00:10:40,790 --> 00:10:38,400 rational it's a it's a it's a policy 268 00:10:42,830 --> 00:10:40,800 that you couldn't defend it on on some 269 00:10:44,990 --> 00:10:42,840 basis instead of pretending that climate 270 00:10:48,350 --> 00:10:45,000 change doesn't happen or is a hoax and 271 00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:48,360 so I really want public policy to be 272 00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:51,600 based on on science whenever it can be 273 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:54,630 so that the policymakers can be informed 274 00:10:59,090 --> 00:10:56,970 and make decisions and the voters can be 275 00:11:01,910 --> 00:10:59,100 informed enough to vote to know who who 276 00:11:03,410 --> 00:11:01,920 is who is full of garbage well that's 277 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:03,420 that's wonderful and there's no 278 00:11:07,730 --> 00:11:05,330 disagreement with that I think the 279 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:07,740 mechanics of it and the details of it 280 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:09,810 are a lot harder you know when I look to 281 00:11:15,620 --> 00:11:12,210 is Judith curry at Georgia Tech 282 00:11:18,950 --> 00:11:15,630 University as qualified and as well 283 00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:18,960 published a climate change expert head 284 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:21,540 of the Department of Earth and 285 00:11:26,510 --> 00:11:23,970 Atmospheric Sciences something like that 286 00:11:29,170 --> 00:11:26,520 well respected but you know kind of 287 00:11:32,030 --> 00:11:29,180 tears apart a lot of the the pillars of 288 00:11:33,770 --> 00:11:32,040 some of the climate change stuff she's 289 00:11:35,420 --> 00:11:33,780 somebody who says hey climate change is 290 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:35,430 happening but we have to be very careful 291 00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:38,220 in the policies that we adopt and in 292 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:40,350 there you can really come to just about 293 00:11:46,250 --> 00:11:43,650 any conclusion you want to along a wide 294 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:46,260 spectrum of policy choices but I don't 295 00:11:48,980 --> 00:11:47,250 want to get off on climate change 296 00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:48,990 because there's so many more interesting 297 00:11:52,780 --> 00:11:51,060 things to talk to you about but I would 298 00:11:56,030 --> 00:11:52,790 take that same point and bring it back 299 00:11:58,070 --> 00:11:56,040 even to evolution and neo-darwinism you 300 00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:58,080 know one of the folks who's been on this 301 00:12:02,780 --> 00:12:00,480 show several times and as a friend of 302 00:12:06,020 --> 00:12:02,790 this show is dr. Rupert Sheldrake 303 00:12:08,060 --> 00:12:06,030 Cambridge biologist published in Nature 304 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:08,070 somebody has all the qualifications who 305 00:12:12,050 --> 00:12:10,050 if you sat him down across the table 306 00:12:14,980 --> 00:12:12,060 from Richard Dawkins would have some 307 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:14,990 very sharp-pointed disagreements about 308 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:18,110 neo-darwinism you know not the same as 309 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:21,930 from our Baptist's I'm sorry I hate that 310 00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:23,490 word neo-darwinism I don't know what it 311 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:26,880 means okay well should I say me people 312 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:28,050 use it as a pejorative 313 00:12:33,079 --> 00:12:29,850 label to make it seem like it's neo-cons 314 00:12:35,300 --> 00:12:33,089 or whatever it's it's it's it's darn I 315 00:12:36,769 --> 00:12:35,310 mean it's like saying neo gravity I mean 316 00:12:38,540 --> 00:12:36,779 of course our views about gravity have 317 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:38,550 evolved but the basic idea of natural 318 00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:41,130 selection mutation and and driven by 319 00:12:46,460 --> 00:12:44,399 natural selection is not is is not an 320 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:46,470 idea that's either controversial or or 321 00:12:52,430 --> 00:12:50,910 or or change because it's been because 322 00:12:54,620 --> 00:12:52,440 it's been subject to testing for under 323 00:12:56,180 --> 00:12:54,630 50 years they well I've jumpin on you 324 00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:56,190 for that because you know I see it 325 00:13:01,220 --> 00:12:58,800 people called neo Darwinist and also new 326 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:01,230 New Atheists as if I don't quite 327 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:02,910 understand what New Atheists are I don't 328 00:13:08,569 --> 00:13:05,610 it's a wonderful label to make people 329 00:13:10,220 --> 00:13:08,579 seem like they have an agenda or or or 330 00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:10,230 or the are suspect but I don't 331 00:13:14,780 --> 00:13:12,480 understand what New Atheism is so anyway 332 00:13:16,699 --> 00:13:14,790 well I mean we could talk about do a 333 00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:16,709 theism - I don't see it necessarily as a 334 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:19,200 pejorative term I see it as identifying 335 00:13:24,350 --> 00:13:22,170 with a certain movement of folks that 336 00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:24,360 had a certain you know vigor and 337 00:13:29,930 --> 00:13:28,320 energized force to bring to a movement 338 00:13:33,170 --> 00:13:29,940 that was kind of I don't want to say 339 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:33,180 dead but was really not as as active in 340 00:13:36,980 --> 00:13:35,370 his current and meaningful so I don't 341 00:13:39,410 --> 00:13:36,990 think new thing new atheism is 342 00:13:42,139 --> 00:13:39,420 necessarily a bad term as far as 343 00:13:45,230 --> 00:13:42,149 neo-darwinism my point is just that you 344 00:13:47,420 --> 00:13:45,240 know here is Rupert Sheldrake who gets 345 00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:47,430 called pseudo scientists and all the 346 00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:49,260 rest of this because of this same thing 347 00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:51,630 is science becomes a position statement 348 00:13:55,850 --> 00:13:54,000 and when people object to someone's 349 00:13:58,030 --> 00:13:55,860 position especially there's these 350 00:14:00,740 --> 00:13:58,040 certain categories that seem to be 351 00:14:03,019 --> 00:14:00,750 protected in some way for for example 352 00:14:05,660 --> 00:14:03,029 the theory of evolution that we can't 353 00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:05,670 move towards having that meaningful 354 00:14:09,889 --> 00:14:07,500 dialogue in the back of the room that 355 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:09,899 you talked about with that group of 356 00:14:15,310 --> 00:14:12,810 Muslims and I've seen this over and over 357 00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:15,320 again in years of doing this show so I 358 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:18,240 think one has to be yes that's true but 359 00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:22,110 one but as I say being respectful of 360 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:23,880 individuals and being respectful ideas 361 00:14:30,319 --> 00:14:25,410 are two different things 362 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:30,329 and and I think you know people invent 363 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:32,370 controversies too often where there are 364 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:33,690 no controversies from climate change 365 00:14:40,189 --> 00:14:35,850 devolution I've seen it happen I've 366 00:14:41,689 --> 00:14:40,199 watched it happen and and and and for 367 00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:41,699 better or worse people who are on the 368 00:14:45,019 --> 00:14:43,470 there are a number of people in science 369 00:14:47,389 --> 00:14:45,029 were on the margin and science of course 370 00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:47,399 it's hard to have a new idea and it's 371 00:14:52,460 --> 00:14:50,160 hard to break through cosines science is 372 00:14:55,129 --> 00:14:52,470 done by scientists and they're human but 373 00:14:57,499 --> 00:14:55,139 at the same time there's often a reason 374 00:15:01,249 --> 00:14:57,509 why people are on the margin and one 375 00:15:02,809 --> 00:15:01,259 should be mean no no no no there we go 376 00:15:05,479 --> 00:15:02,819 again I mean that's exactly what we're 377 00:15:08,359 --> 00:15:05,489 talking about there isn't any standard 378 00:15:10,489 --> 00:15:08,369 other than the method of science and 379 00:15:12,619 --> 00:15:10,499 what science has in place I mean peer 380 00:15:14,569 --> 00:15:12,629 review is supposed to take care of that 381 00:15:16,999 --> 00:15:14,579 it's supposed to bring the people on the 382 00:15:18,739 --> 00:15:17,009 fringe either in and they get published 383 00:15:21,829 --> 00:15:18,749 or they don't we don't need this kind of 384 00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:21,839 meta rule meta-analysis you know it's 385 00:15:26,239 --> 00:15:24,839 like when I talk to folks and they want 386 00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:26,249 to say you know extraordinary claims 387 00:15:32,119 --> 00:15:28,889 require extraordinary proof how is that 388 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:32,129 scientific it's not what we have works 389 00:15:36,079 --> 00:15:34,290 we just have to apply it we don't need 390 00:15:37,849 --> 00:15:36,089 someone on the outside at the end of the 391 00:15:39,559 --> 00:15:37,859 game at the end of the football game 392 00:15:40,970 --> 00:15:39,569 saying oh no you didn't win by enough 393 00:15:42,019 --> 00:15:40,980 you have to kick another field goal 394 00:15:43,699 --> 00:15:42,029 that's not quite an extraordinary 395 00:15:44,989 --> 00:15:43,709 victory you're gonna make an 396 00:15:47,470 --> 00:15:44,999 extraordinary claim in science that 397 00:15:50,029 --> 00:15:47,480 means you're you're you're in some sense 398 00:15:51,529 --> 00:15:50,039 contradictory I mean generally an 399 00:15:54,079 --> 00:15:51,539 extraordinary claim is contradicting 400 00:15:55,340 --> 00:15:54,089 accepted wisdom which is based on wisdom 401 00:15:57,769 --> 00:15:55,350 is based on the evidence so you're 402 00:15:59,659 --> 00:15:57,779 saying the the conventional ideas and 403 00:16:01,879 --> 00:15:59,669 theories are wrong and if you're gonna 404 00:16:04,819 --> 00:16:01,889 make that claim then you've gotta have a 405 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:04,829 darn good reason to make it and most of 406 00:16:08,569 --> 00:16:07,049 the time people make that claim and it 407 00:16:10,759 --> 00:16:08,579 happens if I get that letters every day 408 00:16:12,169 --> 00:16:10,769 from people to say oh all of physics is 409 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:12,179 wrong and I'll tell you why well you 410 00:16:17,179 --> 00:16:14,730 know I know that essentially but are 411 00:16:19,129 --> 00:16:17,189 they publishing in topknot journals of 412 00:16:20,359 --> 00:16:19,139 physics I think if they are you you do 413 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:20,369 have to pay attention to it because 414 00:16:24,889 --> 00:16:22,649 that's the way the game is played you 415 00:16:26,479 --> 00:16:24,899 can't you also have to be skeptical of 416 00:16:30,139 --> 00:16:26,489 stuff and top-notch journals I think 417 00:16:31,729 --> 00:16:30,149 sure it's it's it but as you said it's a 418 00:16:33,379 --> 00:16:31,739 process but I do believe that 419 00:16:36,529 --> 00:16:33,389 extraordinary claims doers are 420 00:16:38,059 --> 00:16:36,539 extraordinary evidence that that science 421 00:16:39,529 --> 00:16:38,069 is often done by baby steps but if 422 00:16:41,779 --> 00:16:39,539 you're claiming a scientific revolution 423 00:16:43,309 --> 00:16:41,789 which mostly when someone is claiming to 424 00:16:45,169 --> 00:16:43,319 make a revolutionary result you can be 425 00:16:48,139 --> 00:16:45,179 pretty well certain most the time that 426 00:16:49,579 --> 00:16:48,149 they're not and every now and then one 427 00:16:52,009 --> 00:16:49,589 times out of a thousand or hundred 428 00:16:53,419 --> 00:16:52,019 thousand is right it's right but it's a 429 00:16:55,570 --> 00:16:53,429 pretty safe assumption that you should 430 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:55,580 be darn skeptical I don't know 431 00:16:59,440 --> 00:16:57,890 move on in your limited amount of time 432 00:17:02,460 --> 00:16:59,450 because I want to talk about religion 433 00:17:05,199 --> 00:17:02,470 too it's another area that you cover 434 00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:05,209 extensively in the movie because that's 435 00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:07,310 what the movie is kind of about this 436 00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:11,000 scientific opposition to some of the 437 00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:13,370 craziness that we see I'm not in 438 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:15,230 religious people but in the practice and 439 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:18,050 how its carried out and I get that on 440 00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:19,490 one hand on the other hand there's some 441 00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:21,800 things that I guess are a little 442 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:24,110 troubling to me when at one point in the 443 00:17:28,690 --> 00:17:25,730 movie Richard Dawkins says I don't 444 00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:28,700 despise religious people I despise what 445 00:17:32,890 --> 00:17:30,320 they stand for 446 00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:32,900 I mean I guess I have to ask you first 447 00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:35,240 of all me i I think I understand what 448 00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:36,950 he's saying but can we really endorse 449 00:17:43,210 --> 00:17:40,310 that kind of statement he was making it 450 00:17:45,610 --> 00:17:43,220 he was speaking to a crowd and in a 451 00:17:47,860 --> 00:17:45,620 context and I think what he meant is we 452 00:17:50,650 --> 00:17:47,870 can despise I think it's true that if 453 00:17:52,540 --> 00:17:50,660 you if you look at the Scriptures of 454 00:17:54,430 --> 00:17:52,550 most men major religions those are 455 00:17:56,770 --> 00:17:54,440 despicable now of course it's 456 00:17:59,230 --> 00:17:56,780 generalizing it's a huge stereotype to 457 00:18:02,440 --> 00:17:59,240 claim that all religious people stand 458 00:18:03,940 --> 00:18:02,450 for those scriptures but but it 459 00:18:06,010 --> 00:18:03,950 nevertheless it's the basis of what the 460 00:18:07,570 --> 00:18:06,020 religion is it what they claim is their 461 00:18:09,070 --> 00:18:07,580 religion the scriptures are pretty 462 00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:09,080 despicable you wouldn't want to live a 463 00:18:15,820 --> 00:18:13,550 life based on on on the dictates of the 464 00:18:19,570 --> 00:18:15,830 Old Testament it's worse than that 465 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:19,580 Isis okay but there's a lot of atheists 466 00:18:24,910 --> 00:18:21,890 Sam Harris is one who are practicing 467 00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:24,920 Buddhists there's a large community so I 468 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:26,870 mean when we lump all this together and 469 00:18:29,770 --> 00:18:28,310 say I don't despise religious people I 470 00:18:31,330 --> 00:18:29,780 despise what they stand for 471 00:18:33,790 --> 00:18:31,340 I mean what's really troubling to me is 472 00:18:35,890 --> 00:18:33,800 you know it's just the kind of stuff you 473 00:18:38,380 --> 00:18:35,900 guys rail against in that that logic 474 00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:38,390 could be turned around and used to to 475 00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:40,460 hate any group you know oh you stand for 476 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:41,900 this and that's what I that's what I 477 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:43,850 hate I don't hate you but you stand for 478 00:18:48,730 --> 00:18:45,530 this and I hate that it's making an 479 00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:48,740 inflammatory statement and and I think I 480 00:18:56,530 --> 00:18:54,590 agree that on the whole anything you you 481 00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:56,540 the many get people's taxes off you're 482 00:19:01,600 --> 00:18:58,490 subject to the problems of trying to 483 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:01,610 have communication but but I think it's 484 00:19:06,130 --> 00:19:03,410 it's worth pointing out to me in some 485 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:06,140 generic sense than anything that denies 486 00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:09,290 that is inconsistent with the evidence 487 00:19:12,530 --> 00:19:09,510 of 488 00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:12,540 reality that is used as a tenant for her 489 00:19:15,740 --> 00:19:14,940 living is in some sense well I would say 490 00:19:17,660 --> 00:19:15,750 it's ridiculous 491 00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:17,670 Richard would say it's despicable but 492 00:19:21,620 --> 00:19:19,830 but I said that to Sam Harris when I'm 493 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:21,630 talking about the fact that well it's 494 00:19:25,370 --> 00:19:23,370 nice to find it nice to say Buddhism is 495 00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:25,380 a kinder gentler kind of he wouldn't 496 00:19:28,850 --> 00:19:26,790 call it a religion of course other 497 00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:28,860 because it's a kinder gentler way of 498 00:19:31,790 --> 00:19:30,480 thinking but it's based one of the many 499 00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:31,800 aspects of it that is completely 500 00:19:37,850 --> 00:19:34,500 ridiculous if someone who claims to be a 501 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:37,860 reasonable man and and tries to be in 502 00:19:41,780 --> 00:19:40,050 accord with science the Dalai Lama bases 503 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:41,790 his hope is his whole position is based 504 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:43,530 on something absolutely ridiculous if 505 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:47,970 you really believe in what he said if he 506 00:19:52,190 --> 00:19:50,370 really put his money where his mouth is 507 00:19:53,420 --> 00:19:52,200 you were resigned as Dali Lama because 508 00:19:55,540 --> 00:19:53,430 the Dali Lama is based on on 509 00:19:58,480 --> 00:19:55,550 reincarnation which is just nonsense 510 00:20:01,580 --> 00:19:58,490 well I don't know if it's just nonsense 511 00:20:03,290 --> 00:20:01,590 nonsense we have a we have a group of 512 00:20:04,610 --> 00:20:03,300 people and I just talk I mean I didn't 513 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:04,620 have a chance to talk to Ian Stevenson 514 00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:06,330 from the University of Virginia because 515 00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:08,400 he's passed away but I just talked to 516 00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:09,600 Jim Tucker 517 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:12,510 you know respected psychologists in the 518 00:20:16,010 --> 00:20:13,650 department of psychology and psychiatry 519 00:20:18,110 --> 00:20:16,020 at University of Virginia they've done 520 00:20:21,740 --> 00:20:18,120 just extensive work published in the 521 00:20:24,110 --> 00:20:21,750 best journals in their field and I don't 522 00:20:26,150 --> 00:20:24,120 know how anyone could could criticize 523 00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:26,160 what they've done and they offer the 524 00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:28,830 only explanation for what they found in 525 00:20:35,630 --> 00:20:32,880 terms of reincarnation so people live 526 00:20:36,740 --> 00:20:35,640 today then there have been in some of 527 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:36,750 human history up to about a hundred 528 00:20:39,410 --> 00:20:38,910 years ago so I don't exactly know where 529 00:20:41,390 --> 00:20:39,420 their souls 530 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:41,400 I mean you just got asked I don't I 531 00:20:46,220 --> 00:20:42,930 don't know where but that's a different 532 00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,230 question isn't it I mean what you can do 533 00:20:50,660 --> 00:20:48,480 is ask yourself the following i guide 534 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:50,670 myself by that by that mantra if you 535 00:20:55,010 --> 00:20:51,090 wish 536 00:20:56,750 --> 00:20:55,020 speaking of Buddhism of the editor of 537 00:20:58,940 --> 00:20:56,760 the New York Times he said I'd like to 538 00:21:01,460 --> 00:20:58,950 keep an open mind but not so open that 539 00:21:03,290 --> 00:21:01,470 my brains fall out and there is and well 540 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:03,300 my wife heard that when she was in in 541 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:05,310 Bible School and the everything I know 542 00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:07,050 about science to argue that 543 00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:09,840 reincarnation is likely all we can say 544 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:11,340 look in science we can't say something 545 00:21:15,980 --> 00:21:14,370 is impossible per se well certain things 546 00:21:17,210 --> 00:21:15,990 we can perhaps if they're well tested 547 00:21:20,030 --> 00:21:17,220 but we can say this is extremely 548 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:20,040 unlikely it's likely verses on life it's 549 00:21:23,090 --> 00:21:22,350 extremely unlikely there's a god just 550 00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:23,100 like it's extreme 551 00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:24,720 like me there's a teapot orbiting 552 00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:26,940 Jupiter it's extremely unlikely from the 553 00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:28,350 same point of view of every bit of 554 00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:30,809 science that I know of including the 555 00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:33,360 evidence of logic as well as Epirus ISM 556 00:21:37,159 --> 00:21:35,520 that that reincarnation occurs certainly 557 00:21:39,919 --> 00:21:37,169 from a physics perspective there's no 558 00:21:42,380 --> 00:21:39,929 mechanism from from a perspective of 559 00:21:43,970 --> 00:21:42,390 just counting numbers much less a 560 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:43,980 perspective of the fact that there's no 561 00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:46,860 such evidence any evidentiary existence 562 00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:48,000 for the existence something you might 563 00:21:53,450 --> 00:21:50,640 call a soul none of that is that's all 564 00:21:56,090 --> 00:21:53,460 brand speculation which doesn't have any 565 00:21:58,220 --> 00:21:56,100 basis in evidence and so therefore as a 566 00:22:00,529 --> 00:21:58,230 scientist I'm incredibly skeptical about 567 00:22:02,570 --> 00:22:00,539 oh so well that's what I mean by 568 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:02,580 nonsense there's no it's if you're just 569 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:04,530 as likely that reincarnation exists to 570 00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:06,690 me as there is the likelihood that 571 00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:08,280 there's a teapot orbiting Jupiter now I 572 00:22:12,049 --> 00:22:10,380 can't prove there is it just like I 573 00:22:13,549 --> 00:22:12,059 can't in some sense I mean I've heard 574 00:22:15,020 --> 00:22:13,559 all that stuff before and I don't want 575 00:22:16,990 --> 00:22:15,030 to go there too far because I don't 576 00:22:20,090 --> 00:22:17,000 think you know I'd love to sit down and 577 00:22:21,890 --> 00:22:20,100 debate the evidence with you or have dr. 578 00:22:23,870 --> 00:22:21,900 Jim Tucker from universal Virginia or 579 00:22:25,730 --> 00:22:23,880 other people that have studied it 580 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:25,740 published on it you know I don't think 581 00:22:29,870 --> 00:22:27,450 you're familiar with that research so I 582 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:29,880 don't think it's really there's you know 583 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:31,470 at some point as Richard Fineman said 584 00:22:34,370 --> 00:22:32,850 there's lots of things I could study I 585 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:34,380 choose to study those things that are 586 00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:36,510 likely to likely to be realistic or 587 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:37,860 reasonable or make progress and it's 588 00:22:42,890 --> 00:22:41,010 logical I don't study UFOs either but 589 00:22:44,539 --> 00:22:42,900 the other thing see there is I mean and 590 00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:44,549 again then we're gonna move on I think 591 00:22:50,029 --> 00:22:47,190 you would really have to tell me 592 00:22:50,690 --> 00:22:50,039 specifically what is wrong with back to 593 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:50,700 science 594 00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:52,289 what's wrong with the scientific method 595 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:55,049 that they've employed because I don't 596 00:22:58,640 --> 00:22:56,610 know how else you get to that question 597 00:23:00,529 --> 00:22:58,650 if you if you take kind of a natural 598 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:00,539 science perspective and say hey there's 599 00:23:04,850 --> 00:23:02,850 a lot of people billions of people 600 00:23:06,529 --> 00:23:04,860 really who report this right or have 601 00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:06,539 reported this over history reincarnation 602 00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:08,190 you say okay I want to investigate it 603 00:23:11,810 --> 00:23:09,840 how would you investigate it and then 604 00:23:12,860 --> 00:23:11,820 you go look at how Ian Stevenson Jim 605 00:23:14,659 --> 00:23:12,870 Tucker and these other people have 606 00:23:16,730 --> 00:23:14,669 investigated it and then you'd say okay 607 00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:16,740 but oh here's the fatal flaw in the way 608 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:18,510 they've approached answering that 609 00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:20,850 question I don't I've talked to you know 610 00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:23,220 I just was I talked to a professor of 611 00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:26,159 philosophy dr. Robert al murder the 612 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:27,600 other day highly highly regarded I 613 00:23:32,899 --> 00:23:30,809 forget what fancy title he has and what 614 00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:32,909 awards he's won but this is his point he 615 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:34,559 says I was not inclined to believe this 616 00:23:39,780 --> 00:23:37,090 at all but the methodology I found no 617 00:23:43,350 --> 00:23:39,790 in it the work I found no fault in it so 618 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:43,360 I am forced compelled to only say that 619 00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:45,730 these are the only guys who've looked at 620 00:23:49,770 --> 00:23:48,070 the data and their hypothesis for what 621 00:23:51,390 --> 00:23:49,780 the explanation is is the only one out 622 00:23:53,610 --> 00:23:51,400 there if somebody comes up with a better 623 00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:53,620 one I'm willing to hear it but people 624 00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:55,600 can spend their time doing that I told 625 00:23:59,700 --> 00:23:57,370 you before I could investigate I get I 626 00:24:01,050 --> 00:23:59,710 used to debate in the old days and you 627 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:01,060 of all people they'd say do you know 628 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:03,850 about this episode 1946 and if you 629 00:24:08,190 --> 00:24:05,650 haven't investigated that completely how 630 00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:08,200 can you tell me that UFOs are not like 631 00:24:12,060 --> 00:24:09,520 using an ax and I was like what I can 632 00:24:14,460 --> 00:24:12,070 say is it's highly unlikely I don't have 633 00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:14,470 the time or inclination so it might have 634 00:24:18,060 --> 00:24:16,480 to be convinced by some piece of 635 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:18,070 evidence that suggests that it was worth 636 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:20,530 my time to understand why that Professor 637 00:24:25,980 --> 00:24:24,610 air and then after all as I told him 638 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:25,990 once the stuff that's published even 639 00:24:29,730 --> 00:24:28,390 rich easy to generals is garbage and I'm 640 00:24:31,230 --> 00:24:29,740 very skeptical of many of the things 641 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:31,240 that are done in psychology I have to 642 00:24:35,730 --> 00:24:33,970 admit but I don't have the time or 643 00:24:38,010 --> 00:24:35,740 inclination to investigate something 644 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:38,020 that that is highly likely to be wrong 645 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:40,330 you don't have the time let's stick to 646 00:24:43,620 --> 00:24:41,920 that because right now I know you're 647 00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:43,630 pressed for time and I do appreciate the 648 00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:45,820 time you spent with me I hope people do 649 00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:48,400 check out the unbelievers it's really I 650 00:24:53,910 --> 00:24:51,940 think no matter which side of this fence 651 00:24:55,650 --> 00:24:53,920 you sit on unless you're kind of a very 652 00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:55,660 religious person then the movie might 653 00:24:59,880 --> 00:24:58,090 not be for you but it's easy to access 654 00:25:01,950 --> 00:24:59,890 you can get it on I think I watch it on 655 00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:01,960 Netflix for free but you can also watch 656 00:25:06,990 --> 00:25:04,720 it through Amazon any number of places 657 00:25:09,270 --> 00:25:07,000 DVD all that good stuff but one last 658 00:25:11,070 --> 00:25:09,280 question a couple weeks ago I had a 659 00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:11,080 chance to talk to Michael Shermer about 660 00:25:15,270 --> 00:25:13,660 his new book the moral arc and which I 661 00:25:17,790 --> 00:25:15,280 thought is a very fine book and it makes 662 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:17,800 the case that these moral trends that 663 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:19,930 we're all I guess we could say proud of 664 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:22,810 and identify with as a culture those 665 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:24,370 trends in the last couple years cannot 666 00:25:28,260 --> 00:25:26,650 be traced to religion can't be traced to 667 00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:28,270 some scripture that was found under a 668 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:30,760 rock or anything like that but can only 669 00:25:37,110 --> 00:25:33,970 be traced from us from our logic our 670 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:37,120 reason our society now that's all well 671 00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:38,770 and good and we can all feel good about 672 00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:40,480 that and I think atheists can feel good 673 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:43,900 about that but we come across you know I 674 00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:45,610 saw in the film that you're at the 675 00:25:48,780 --> 00:25:47,500 global atheist convention and you say 676 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:48,790 what you've said a million times before 677 00:25:53,220 --> 00:25:50,890 you know there's no me 678 00:25:56,669 --> 00:25:53,230 in the universe right there's no meaning 679 00:25:59,280 --> 00:25:56,679 to being yeah okay well but shorthand 680 00:26:01,470 --> 00:25:59,290 there's no meaning the point is we can't 681 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:01,480 really connect those I think atheists 682 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:03,610 have a real hard time because come on 683 00:26:07,860 --> 00:26:05,890 let's be honest logically if there's no 684 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:07,870 meaning in the universe then there's no 685 00:26:11,850 --> 00:26:09,850 meaning in life there's no moral 686 00:26:14,370 --> 00:26:11,860 imperative there's no way to connect 687 00:26:16,350 --> 00:26:14,380 that with schirmer's moral are if you if 688 00:26:18,030 --> 00:26:16,360 you listen to month the full part of the 689 00:26:19,950 --> 00:26:18,040 movie if my point was that you make your 690 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:19,960 own meaning you make your own meaning in 691 00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:21,130 life and try and make your own 692 00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:23,260 contribution it makes my life much more 693 00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:26,470 precious to know that that the universe 694 00:26:30,299 --> 00:26:27,790 doesn't give a damn about what I'm doing 695 00:26:32,430 --> 00:26:30,309 and I can determine what I'm doing and 696 00:26:34,590 --> 00:26:32,440 decide whether it's worthwhile or not it 697 00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:34,600 gives me much more energy motivation I 698 00:26:39,930 --> 00:26:37,780 got all that but my own meaning inside 699 00:26:42,450 --> 00:26:39,940 of a universe a world that has no 700 00:26:46,049 --> 00:26:42,460 meaning is an illusion I mean this is 701 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:46,059 one of the tenets of atheism Daniel 702 00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:47,650 Dennett consciousness is an illusion I 703 00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:50,470 mean this is what it is it is something 704 00:26:55,620 --> 00:26:53,590 that we determine as humans is meaning 705 00:26:56,909 --> 00:26:55,630 to us that certain things are important 706 00:26:58,289 --> 00:26:56,919 or certain things are not important 707 00:27:00,330 --> 00:26:58,299 they're not globally important whether 708 00:27:02,580 --> 00:27:00,340 humanity survives or not doesn't it 709 00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:02,590 doesn't matter at all to their universe 710 00:27:06,690 --> 00:27:04,840 we're irrelevant to the universe so but 711 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:06,700 we decide it's important because we are 712 00:27:11,159 --> 00:27:08,980 fortunate enough to have brains and an 713 00:27:13,860 --> 00:27:11,169 ability to have foresight an ability to 714 00:27:18,110 --> 00:27:13,870 to plan our actions and we therefore 715 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:18,120 have the great luxury of trying to 716 00:27:22,530 --> 00:27:20,110 effectively work to make our own lives 717 00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:22,540 and lives around us better but but we 718 00:27:26,940 --> 00:27:23,980 but that's a person that's a human 719 00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:26,950 that's a human decision and in a global 720 00:27:31,260 --> 00:27:29,710 sense and a cosmic sense is completely 721 00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:31,270 irrelevant but no it doesn't make make 722 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:33,070 it any less important because I'm living 723 00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:34,330 on earth I'm not living somewhere else 724 00:27:37,890 --> 00:27:36,190 I'm a human surrounded by other humans 725 00:27:39,930 --> 00:27:37,900 and therefore the importance that I 726 00:27:42,210 --> 00:27:39,940 tribute to my activities as a human is 727 00:27:43,890 --> 00:27:42,220 based on my experience as a human and I 728 00:27:46,620 --> 00:27:43,900 recognize that and nothing more nothing 729 00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:46,630 less but it but it enlivens me and it 730 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:49,480 inspires me to do my best I think it's 731 00:27:53,310 --> 00:27:51,010 probably a good time to go okay I don't 732 00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:53,320 see how that's anything less than an 733 00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:55,809 illusion but another discussion for 734 00:27:59,700 --> 00:27:58,000 another time it's been great talking to 735 00:28:02,190 --> 00:27:59,710 you again folks the movie that you want 736 00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:02,200 to check out is the unbelievers starring 737 00:28:06,060 --> 00:28:04,750 our guest today dr. Lawrence Krauss 738 00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:06,070 it's been great having you on the show 739 00:28:10,770 --> 00:28:08,470 thank you very much thank you okay 740 00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:10,780 thanks again to dr. cross for joining me 741 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:12,640 today on skeptic oh you know one 742 00:28:17,010 --> 00:28:14,170 pushback I anticipate from this 743 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:17,020 interview is folks Hank you know dr. 744 00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:19,050 Krauss doesn't really represent 745 00:28:24,330 --> 00:28:21,760 mainstream science he's kind of on the 746 00:28:25,950 --> 00:28:24,340 edge kind of has an extreme position but 747 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:25,960 I have to disagree you know certainly 748 00:28:31,350 --> 00:28:28,450 there aren't many professors at a major 749 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:31,360 state university that would openly call 750 00:28:36,540 --> 00:28:34,510 for the Dalai Lama to step down that is 751 00:28:39,540 --> 00:28:36,550 extreme but I tell you what I think 752 00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:39,550 science as we know it the institution of 753 00:28:45,270 --> 00:28:43,120 science loves when dr. Krauss steps out 754 00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:45,280 there and says these kind of things 755 00:28:50,310 --> 00:28:47,950 he's the barking dog on the chain that 756 00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:50,320 keeps everyone in line it's just like 757 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:52,240 when Richard Dawkins says I don't 758 00:28:58,050 --> 00:28:55,210 despise religious people I despise what 759 00:29:00,960 --> 00:28:58,060 they stand for so don't expect any 760 00:29:03,030 --> 00:29:00,970 outcry from science groups admonishing 761 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:03,040 dr. Krauss for remarks that many will 762 00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:06,130 find offensive insensitive and from a 763 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:08,080 scientific standpoint unsubstantiated 764 00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:09,970 but we won't even go there and don't 765 00:29:14,250 --> 00:29:11,980 expect any outcry because you haven't 766 00:29:16,620 --> 00:29:14,260 heard it about Richard Dawkins comments 767 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:16,630 even though it opens the door to hate 768 00:29:22,260 --> 00:29:19,450 any group that you don't like oh I take 769 00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:22,270 it back we don't hate them we hate what 770 00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:25,600 they stand for no science falls in line 771 00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:27,670 with these ideas because they've been 772 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:29,920 conditioned to think it supports this 773 00:29:34,830 --> 00:29:32,170 phony battle between science and 774 00:29:37,350 --> 00:29:34,840 religion that occupies so much of our 775 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:37,360 time so I'm a course very glad that dr. 776 00:29:41,540 --> 00:29:39,370 Krauss came out skeptic oh and shared 777 00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:41,550 these ideas because I think they are 778 00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:43,990 representative of the institution of 779 00:29:47,930 --> 00:29:46,000 science science as we know it of its 780 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:47,940 current position regarding these issues 781 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:50,410 so with that let me offer up a couple of 782 00:29:56,460 --> 00:29:52,570 questions from this interview question 783 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:56,470 number one is reincarnation nonsense and 784 00:30:00,180 --> 00:29:57,730 I'd asked that question from a 785 00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:00,190 scientific standpoint how would we 786 00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:02,710 approach the question of reincarnation 787 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:04,960 since it's such a widely held belief 788 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:08,050 many people having not only a belief in 789 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:10,810 it by birth but an actual experience of 790 00:30:15,780 --> 00:30:12,730 it of memories of recollections of 791 00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:15,790 previous lives how would we explore such 792 00:30:20,490 --> 00:30:18,310 a question scientifically 793 00:30:23,310 --> 00:30:20,500 question number two how can your life 794 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:23,320 have any meaning if you live in a 795 00:30:27,090 --> 00:30:25,330 meaningless universe I've asked this 796 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:27,100 question to so many atheists and 797 00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:29,290 skeptics and I never seem to get an 798 00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:31,630 answer and I don't think I got an answer 799 00:30:36,770 --> 00:30:34,030 from dr. Krauss either I mean this is 800 00:30:40,110 --> 00:30:36,780 simple logic folks if the entire 801 00:30:42,390 --> 00:30:40,120 universe is meaningless then how is it 802 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:42,400 possible that your life has any meaning 803 00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:44,890 any real mean of course you can pretend 804 00:30:49,770 --> 00:30:46,720 like your life has meaning but it's 805 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:49,780 inside of the universe that has no 806 00:30:55,860 --> 00:30:52,930 meaning how is that possible and finally 807 00:30:58,590 --> 00:30:55,870 I'd offer up one answer to dr. Krauss 808 00:31:00,570 --> 00:30:58,600 this question of how can reincarnation 809 00:31:03,540 --> 00:31:00,580 exist if there's more people on the 810 00:31:06,110 --> 00:31:03,550 planet now than ever before the answer 811 00:31:09,270 --> 00:31:06,120 is I don't know because we haven't 812 00:31:11,580 --> 00:31:09,280 investigated how reincarnation might 813 00:31:14,010 --> 00:31:11,590 work and what is the nature of 814 00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:14,020 consciousness that might exist outside 815 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:16,900 the body you know when I was listening 816 00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:19,570 to dr. Krauss and his ramblings on 817 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:21,670 extraordinary claims an extraordinary 818 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:23,890 proof I couldn't help but remember a 819 00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:26,530 recent interview I did with radio host 820 00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:28,240 Tim banal and I thought he had an 821 00:31:33,740 --> 00:31:31,120 excellent reworking of that phrase in 822 00:31:38,460 --> 00:31:33,750 his is that extraordinary claims require 823 00:31:40,980 --> 00:31:38,470 extraordinary investigations I think 824 00:31:43,020 --> 00:31:40,990 Tim's got it right on the money so 825 00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:43,030 finally if you'd like to jump in and 826 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:45,070 answer any of those questions or if you 827 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:47,650 have any other comments about this show 828 00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:50,650 the place to connect with us is through 829 00:31:58,050 --> 00:31:55,600 the skeptic Oh website at ske pti ke o 830 00:32:00,240 --> 00:31:58,060 comm you can leave a comment right there 831 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:00,250 on the website or jump over to the forum 832 00:32:05,490 --> 00:32:03,130 section and join us in conversation over 833 00:32:07,770 --> 00:32:05,500 there it's very easy to do just takes a 834 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:07,780 minute to register we never bug you with 835 00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:11,050 emails or mailing lists or anything like 836 00:32:15,150 --> 00:32:12,580 that it's just a place for people to 837 00:32:17,580 --> 00:32:15,160 connect and talk finally you can connect 838 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:17,590 with me via Facebook or of course send 839 00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:19,090 me an email by the way thanks to 840 00:32:23,910 --> 00:32:21,790 everyone for all the support on the show 841 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:23,920 I've gotten a lot of good feedback on 842 00:32:28,140 --> 00:32:25,690 some of the interviews I've been doing 843 00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:28,150 in support of my book why science is 844 00:32:31,919 --> 00:32:30,310 wrong about almost everything it's been 845 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:31,929 so fun to do as 846 00:32:36,899 --> 00:32:34,090 cently on mysterious universe that was a 847 00:32:38,940 --> 00:32:36,909 lot of fun I was also on the paranormal 848 00:32:41,310 --> 00:32:38,950 podcast with Jim Harold that was great 849 00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:41,320 as well I'm posting some of those links 850 00:32:46,019 --> 00:32:43,840 to those interviews on the book website 851 00:32:47,369 --> 00:32:46,029 why science is wrong calm be sure to 852 00:32:49,859 --> 00:32:47,379 check that out if you're at all 853 00:32:51,629 --> 00:32:49,869 interested otherwise keep listening I 854 00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:51,639 appreciate it I love hearing how people 855 00:32:55,470 --> 00:32:53,529 have found the show I love hearing how 856 00:32:57,330 --> 00:32:55,480 people recommend the show to their 857 00:33:00,419 --> 00:32:57,340 friends and other people it's so great 858 00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:00,429 to spread this community and get more 859 00:33:05,820 --> 00:33:03,039 people thinking and talking about these 860 00:33:08,489 --> 00:33:05,830 topics it's a real charge for me when we 861 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:08,499 do that so I hope we can just continue 862 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:11,110 doing it as much as we can I do have a 863 00:33:16,259 --> 00:33:13,090 bunch of really good shows coming up I 864 00:33:18,299 --> 00:33:16,269 feel a little bit of an obligation to 865 00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:18,309 get these out I have been holding on to 866 00:33:23,039 --> 00:33:19,840 some of them for a while but it's just 867 00:33:24,869 --> 00:33:23,049 hard to get everything moving and get 868 00:33:26,970 --> 00:33:24,879 them all out but I'm gonna keep trying 869 00:33:28,739 --> 00:33:26,980 to do that there's some really good ones 870 00:33:31,710 --> 00:33:28,749 coming up though please stay tuned for